Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> __/ [ Larry Qualig ] on Thursday 23 February 2006 19:49 \__
>
> >
> > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> >> __/ [ Larry Qualig ] on Thursday 23 February 2006 18:59 \__
> >>
> >> >
> >> > 7 wrote:
> >> >> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > __/ [ B Gruff ] on Thursday 23 February 2006 00:07 \__
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >>
> http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/precn_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Well well, Dell:-)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > Don't get too excited:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >>
> http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/precn_380?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dell think they can pull a fast one: selling Linux for the same
> >> >> > price as
> >> >> > the equivalent offering with a Windows XP licence. Just remove the
> >> >> > "n"
> >> >> > from the model and then search the Web, hitting the first result.
> >> >> > The truth is suddenly unravelled.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Having said that, it is nice that Dell are making progress. It is no
> >> >> > sur- prise either. Michael Dell gave 100 millions dollars _out of his
> >> >> > own pock- et_ to Red Hat Linux. That was over 6 months ago if I
> >> >> > recall correctly, so
> >> >> > it was bound to happen. The open PC (void hard-drive), on the
> >> >> > contrary,
> >> >> > was /more/ expensive than the equivalent with Windows. So let's call
> >> >> > that *progress*, but avoid unnecessary enthusiasm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Roy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree.
> >> >> So who cares about Dell$ if they sell PCs with GNU/Linux and
> >> >> overcharge? Dell$ nowwhere to be seen when it comes to competitive
> >> >> value for money.
> >> >>
> >> >> There are companies like E-sys that sell supported Linux computers with
> >> >> warranty, software like Open Office etc a lot cheaper than dell$.
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?rb=16488053918&action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=89079
> >> >> For 127.64 pounds you get a 2.26GHz PC.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > For the record... that price from E-sys is an *excellent* price. But:
> >> >
> >> > -> "So who cares about Dell$.... Dell$ nowwhere to be seen when it
> >> > comes to competitive value for money."
> >> >
> >> > The problem is that "E-sys is nowhere to be seen - PERIOD."
> >> >
> >> > I'd be willing to wager that at most, one maybe two other people in
> >> > COLA has even heard of E-sys. I'd also be willing to wager that every
> >> > single person here at COLA has heard of Dell. This is even more true of
> >> > the general population.
> >> >
> >> > So it matters very much what Dell does and what some itty-bitty vendor
> >> > does really doesn't matter. Sorry to say, that's how things simply
> >> > work.
> >>
> >> Ouch. Boy, do I disagree on this one!
> >>
> >> The University works very closely with Dell. Merely all desktops around
> >> here are being built and shipped by Dell. That's many thousands of them
> >> black boxes all around campus. Hypothetically, step into the IT
> >> departments and ask the folks here about Dell support. See the responses
> >> you get. My close colleague once took careful notes of the times of the
> >> day when he called Dell without getting an answer. He was fed up. He then
> >> accumulated this list of hours and passed it on as a bitter proof of
> >> inexistent support for unreliable hardware.
> >>
> >> Now, take myself and eSys, for the sake of comparison. Their computer is
> >> shipped with a Maxtor hard-drive if I recall correctly. Maxtor have
> >> definitely established some good reputation in their sector. Alas, 3 days
> >> after I received my first eSys computer, the hard-drive went tits-up. What
> >> did I do? I phoned the main branch in London, which gave me the number of
> >> a technician. After a while of talking with a guy whose accent was Indian
> >> (maybe the call centre was offshorn, yet I suspect eSys is in Asia
> >> anyway), he agreed that the hard-drive was faulty; and *not* 'out of the
> >> box' so! I just needed to prove this 'on the spot' by going through the
> >> BIOS and describing some symptoms. Soon thereafter (only minutes on the
> >> phone), Dabs sent a courier to collect my box and replaced it with a shiny
> >> new one, without any extra expenses. I only needed to tolerate the absence
> >> of a workstation in my bedroom, at least in that interim.
> >>
> >> Dabs caused me a lot of trouble, including delays and patchy support, but
> >> they are totally unrelated to eSys. They were merely the middlemen, of
> >> which they are many that eSys negotiate with.
> >>
> >> So there you go. Dell - s**te support, presumingly bad hardware; eSys -
> >> full refund or replacement, immediate response to calls and no need for
> >> arguments. I have two Dells machines, by the way. Hardware has given no
> >> hassle so far, but I must be among the lucky ones.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Roy... that was exactly my point.
> >
> > -> The University works very closely with Dell. Merely all desktops
> > around here are being built and shipped by Dell. That's many
> > ***thousands*** of them black boxes all around campus....
> >
> > -> Now, take myself and eSys, for the sake of comparison....Dabs sent a
> > courier to collect ***my box***
> >
> > -> So there you go. Dell - s**te support, presumingly bad hardware;
> > eSys - full refund or replacementneed for
> >
> >
> > It's not a matter of who builds better computers or who has better
> > support. It's a matter of your "one box" compared to the "thousands" of
> > Dell boxes at the university. The quantity of computers that Dell sells
> > and ships is what drives public perception and influences buyers, not
> > the few that eSys sells. What's also relevant is that >50% of all
> > computers sold today are laptops.
>
>
-> I am baffled. As the argument regarding laptops is irrelevant,
-> let us look at the remainder.
I don't think that laptops are irrelevant simply because last year
(2005) was the first time that laptop sales exceeded desktop sales. The
software and OS that ships on laptops is important because it
determines what 10's of millions of people will be running each and
every quarter.
-> First you make an argument that the *quality* of machines from
smaller
-> is lower. When the argument was invalidated, you the opted for a
different
-> one, most possibly for convenience. The issue of availability, the
issue of
-> *quantity* is a no-issue.
I never brought up quality as an issue. My first comment on quality was
in response to your experience at the University and with your system
and I said that quality could very well be better with a smaller
vendor. But the topic I'm interested in is whether or not anyone cares
what Dell sells. Dell sold 37,754,066 computers last year. That's well
over 17,000 computers per hour. The systems that Dell advertises and
sells should matter. Advertising really does work and Dell is basically
advertising Windows to many 100's of millions of people each and every
day.
> First you make an argument that the *quality* of machines from smaller (side
> note: often more motivated, have something to prove) vendors is lower. When
> the argument was invalidated, you the opted for a different one, most
> possibly for convenience. The issue of availability, the issue of *quantity*
> is a no-issue. If you gave eSys enough time and showed there is demand
> (market is driven by demand), I am sure they would have built the machines
> happily and very quickly. They would have soon put them all on the next
> ship.
We seem to have drifted off topic here. The context for my posts was
this statement that I believe "7" made - "So who cares about Dell$ if
they sell PCs with GNU/Linux and overcharge? Dell$ nowwhere to be seen
when it comes to competitive value for money."
Dell is *everywhere* to be seen. If Dell were to prominently offer a
Linux desktop system at a good price and advertise this machine it
would be a huge win for the Linux community. Much more so than someone
like EBuyer selling a Linux system. Again... EBuyer has 300 Linux
systems in stock and ready to sell. Dell sells about 300 systems each
and every minute of every day... 24/7 times 365 days a year. What Dell
sells *does* matter. It's nice that EBuyer is selling a Linux system.
But it really doesn't matter in the big picture.
-> Regarding the issue of advertisements (separate route down the
path...
Advertisements are important because Dell is *everywhere* to be seen.
If a major, major vendor like Dell were to start marketing and
advertising Linux based systems it would be huge. It would essentially
legitimize Linux to your average Joe six-pack. Unlike Windows and
Microsoft (which is basically everywhere) most people have no idea what
Linux is and has probably never heard of it. Someone like Dell selling
and advertising a Linux based system is an important step.
There's another thread where it's mentioned that Dell does sell a Linux
desktop. But it seems you can't get to it from any link or add. You
need to search for "Linux desktop" to find it. If the only way to buy a
Linux system from Dell is to have to search for "Linux desktop" then
this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. To say that "what
Dell sells doesn't matter" because EBuyer sells Linux machines is
absurd. It's great if you're looking for a good quality machine at a
low price. But it essentially does nothing to advance Linux on the
desktop.
> appended
> below for context), I am disappointed that someone seemingly witty like
> yourself considers that a worthwhile factor. I sometimes abstain from buying
> products that are advertised excessively. With advertisements everywhere, I
> know where my expenses goes: not better products that are composed from
> higher-quality raw ingredients, but rather a propaganda which involves air
> time, 'hip' designers and label/logo/package-making.
>
> All in all, I continue to disagree with you on that one.
>
>
> __/ [ Larry Qualig ] on Friday 24 February 2006 03:11 \__
>
> > For someone the size of Dell it is a small order. Ebuyer may have a
> > total of 330 in stock. Dell probably ships that many in under an hour.
> > It's ridiculous trying to compare "Ebuyer" to Dell who happens to sell
> > more computers than anyone else in the world.
> >
> > I see lots of Dell commercials on TV. Where are all those EBuyer
> > commercials? Just about every magazine and newspaper has Dell adds.
> > I've never-ever seen an add for EBuyer. I've been reading computer
> > publications for years now. I never heard of EBuyer until today.
>
>
> --
> Roy S. Schestowitz | Useless fact: Florida is bigger than England
> http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
> 5:20am up 6 days 17:39, 8 users, load average: 0.61, 0.42, 0.40
> http://iuron.com - Open Source knowledge engine project
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