-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
____/ Snit on Tuesday 05 Jul 2011 16:23 : \____
> Roy Schestowitz stated in post 4110779.VNtL66CmDp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on 7/5/11
> 1:03 AM:
>
> ...
>>>>>> No, inciting hatred and discrimination towards Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why name one religion?
>>>>
>>>> Because you did, when you singled out the problems in Texas as generally
>>>> representative of all religion.
>>>
>>> Who is inciting hatred? I have had many Christians tell me I will burn in
>>> hell. Forever. That I will be damned to go where murderers and rapists and
>>> the like go... *not* because I do bad things but because I do not accept
>>> their beliefs.
>>>
>>> I have never heard of an atheist telling a theist of any sort they will or
>>> that they should suffer like that. Never.
>>>
>>> Have you? Do you have any examples? I am sure I can find examples of
>>> Christians making such hateful claims.
>>
>> That does not generalise well though. You need to judge not based on extreme
>> cases
>> (like the ones you mentioned or Hitchins on the other hand).
>
> Oh, do not get me wrong. I am *not* trying to paint all religious people
> nor even all Christians with one brush. I have worked for Catholic
> organizations, have Christian neighbors I respect and have friends of many
> faiths. What I am noting is the claim that atheists are inciting hatred and
> discrimination against Catholics is an absurd claim - there are few examples
> of this, and for every example Homer can find, I am sure I can find 10 or
> more examples of folks doing worse in the name of religion. For the most
> part, with few exceptions, even those atheists who work against religious
> folks are doing so in *reaction* to the pushing of beliefs and open attacks
> of those religious folks. To bring it back to the topic first being
> discussed: it is religious folks (mostly Christians) who are pushing to
> teach myth as science in public schools. Those that work against this
> absurdity are reacting to the "attack", if you want to call it that.
>
> ...
>>>> The "movement" in question is a bunch of militant atheists using the
>>>> threat posed by a minority of political extremists to attack religion,
>>>> because those political extremists are hiding behind a religious banner.
>>>
>>> What attack? This is one of those simple questions you are asked but you
>>> run from.
>>
>> I agree. I've hardly "attacked" religion. I know people who do, though.
>
> I am sure there are *some* such people... but what do they do to "attack"?
>
> ...
>>>> You believe religious beliefs are preposterous because they contradict
>>>> scientific facts, regardless of whether those facts are about
>>>> astrophysics or evolution. So don't pretend one of those facts is
>>>> irrelevant just because it's less certain, and thus fails to support the
>>>> idea that religion is preposterous.
>>>
>>> You did change the topic: but in either case, teaching science as religion
>>> is absurd. If you disagree with the big bang theory that is fine... it is
>>> *still* a part of science and to teach it as such is not wrong. Teaching
>>> religion as science is wrong. This is not hard.
>>
>> The problem there is that some*one* some*where* might *choose* to feel
>> insulted.
>
> Sure... people are insulted by their kids being educated... in those cases,
> though, they can take their kids out of school and home school them or send
> them to a religious private school. Though I will say even a religious
> school should be teaching *science* in the science class - if not then no
> accreditation group should grant them admission.
>
> ...
>>>> That includes Richard Dawkins, a self-confessed militant atheist,
>>>> Christopher Hitchens, A. C. Grayling and, from what I've seen in this
>>>> thread so far, you.
>>>
>>> So show some examples of, say, Dawkins demonstrating hatred toward religion.
>>>
>>> Here is a quote of his which contradicts your claims about him:
>>>
>>> I oppose fundamentalist religion because it is hell-bent on
>>> ruining the scientific education of countless eager minds.
>>>
>>> And:
>>>
>>> As a scientist, I am hostile to fundamentalist religion
>>> because it actively debauches the scientific enterprise. It
>>> teaches us not to change our minds, and not to want to know
>>> exciting things that are available to be known. It subverts
>>> science and saps the intellect.
>>>
>>> So where is your evidence that he is as you say?
>>>
>>>>>> Are you saying that altruism is /not/ a virtuous thing worth
>>>>>> learning?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is, but it's independent of the notion of something invisible
>>>>> watching everything we do.
>>>>
>>>> Not if people adopt moral principles specifically as a result of their
>>>> religious education, as many people do, including me.
>>>
>>> One can be religious and have such views... or not. Just as one can be an
>>> atheist and have such views - or not. Can you show where religion promotes
>>> "good" behavior more than do atheist views? There is at least some evidence
>>> that religious folks tend to be *less* moral, though I am not saying there
>>> is definite causation here. Still, evidence points to atheists being
>>> somewhere around 100 times *less* likely to go to jail than are believers...
>>> etc. The idea religion leads to greater morality is a hard one to show...
>>> good luck.
>>>
>>> Oh. You will not even try.
>>
>> Yes, that is a common defence of atheism. On many criteria in the United
>> States they score really well. Moreover, among those who wear a "Faith" cloak
>> in the US, many are 'closet atheists'.
>
> The ones who will not admit to being atheists are so ashamed they end up in
> jail. That explains everything! :)
>
>>>>> And to use the blackmail of Hellfire is not good for one's mental
>>>>> peace.
>>>>
>>>> I don't recall any priest ever threatening me with damnation.
>>>
>>> I have heard that threat many, many times. Believe as I do or be damned
>>> forever. Eternity. Do you need online examples of such claims?
>>>
>>>> What I do recall is being taught that principles like altruism and
>>>> compassion
>>>> are their own reward, because they build trust and friendship.
>>>
>>> What about the whole heaven and hell thing?
>>> ...
>>
>> Not many people play these cards, at least not in Europe (which is rather
>> secular).
>
> In the US it is very common. Walk across any large University campus and
> you can see folks calling out about such... and it is not uncommon in other
> public areas.
Here, these people are sometimes treated as k00ks in the streets.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): schestowitz@xxxxxxxxx (24/7)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAk4T6gEACgkQU4xAY3RXLo7MlACfY6GpJgO6KU7iGS1ePBrG1F7i
yNwAmgKsGvd4ufcqRnOVG6irU92vWYJI
=TZ4k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
|
