__/ [ BearItAll ] on Wednesday 21 February 2007 14:16 \__
> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>>
>> Will bad backups doom Windows Home Server?
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>> | Microsoft just announced it's working on Windows Home Server, which
>> | among other features, will automatically back up files on all PCs in
>> | the home. But if the product uses the same kind of brain-dead backup
>> | built into Windows Vista, this is a product that will be dead on
>> | arrival.
>> |
>> | The backup tool built into Windows Vista may be the worst utility
>> | every packed into an operating system. It doesn't allow you to back
>> | up individual files, folders or even file types. Instead, you have to
>> | back up every single file and folder of broad generic types.
>> |
>> | For example, if you want to back up a single picture, you have to back
>> | up every single graphic of every graphic file type on your entire PC,
>> | including all the graphics that Vista itself uses. This means you can
>> | be forced to back up hundreds of gigabytes of files if you only want
>> | to back up a few family photos.
>> `----
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/4303
>>
>
> That is bad, because the users wont do it, also what I would call a primary
> in backups that the system backup and the data backup are not the same
> thing.
True. I personally back up just settings and data. The system is restorable
from the CD(s). Anything on the home directories (with the exception of a
few tweaks I apply as root, then keeping some backup on the home directory,
for restoration) gives you a system in a good state. I'll admit that I even
put program executables in my home directory because these are typically
single-user setups.
> If Vista was a true admin/user system (I know, hypothetical, because it
> isn't) but if they hadn't been some dumb as to not know how to setup
> useable users so that they aren't tempted to just stay as admin all the
> time, then they could trigger off the system backup when ever they make a
> system change and data backups in a dated form to make it easier to handle.
Scriptablity comes into play.
> How many home users are going to have enough space to have multiple copies
> of the entire system in backup form, I know the answer, few. I just looked
> up the space required by Vista, it is 15G, average home user data less than
> 10G (I don't count media which should be put onto CD/DVD anyway, it's their
> own fault if they lose that lot). Then something has to be added for the
> users applications, it's an all or nothing backup system.
So fallbacks/rollbacks to recover from backup 'contamination' is an issue.
The larger the system backup, the smaller the stack of backups (capacity) or
frequency (duration).
> So lets say 30G per backup copy if you have to backup the entire system and
> user area each time. So on a backup drive, assuming 25% compression, so
> around 22G per backup copy, plus of cause a much longer backup session than
> necessary.
I'm not sure about compression. It's wise to avoid compression if you want to
restore/recover a single file quickly, without handling beasts (e.g. 1
gigabyte files). Windows filesystems also set a file size limit, which has
always proven to be a pain. The limit is 4 GB, but I'm not sure about
FAT32/NTFS differences... could look it up quickly, but generally it's a
Windows issue, just one among many. Also, handling of long paths, symbols,
and case sensitivity lead to issues, especially across FSs.
> A better way is, the system and apps 20G compresses to about 15G, backed up
> when a change is made, which isn't likely to be very often once the users
> has his/her main applications onboard.
>
> Then just the 10G user backed up on a changed file basis, compressed is
> about 6G. So we can have a decent sized rotation, the backups would be very
> quick because not only are we only needing updated backups, but the number
> of files concerned is much less so the software can work more quickly.
>
> But actually, because of MS's record with backup software, I would go for a
> third party one anyway. I know that HP for one have already thought ahead
> and put an automated backup system on their Vista machines.
I heard something from yttrx about Exchange backups. Very notorious
apparently. I will never go back to relying on Windows for backups (or any
cyclic task for that matter as it become a chore, a pain, and a reason to
yell).
>>> At the moment non-technical Linuxers tend to reach too quickly for the
>>> reinstall if something goes wrong, or switching distro for one particular
>>> application. We can't really expect these people to be willing to read a
>>> howto, so an automatic system and data backup as well as an easy restore
>>> route is probably the way. After the initial backup the actual rsync of a
>>> typical client takes just moments, could maybe be done as part of the
>>> shutdown or pre-hybernate as well as in idle time.
>>
>>
>> This makes you wonder about Live CDs as a permanent thing, or at least
>> portable applications, USB Linux, with the option of putting all data and
>> settings on the USB stick.
>>
>
> I don't really see why not, Live Linux of cause has the reputation of slow
> start up, this is fully understandable because they have to check the
> hardware each time. Unfortunately that gives the impression that a CD or
> USB boot is slow. It isn't slow though.
>
> There is no reason why a live CD or a USB distro can not be just as quick
> as an installed distro, provided it can be certain that the machine it is
> currently booting on is the same machine refferenced in it's storage area.
> Then more of the storage resources of the PC are available to your Linux,
> but you are not dependant on your PC if something goes wrong with it. Just
> get another PC plug in your USB and assuming your data is backed up then
> you have an almost instant repair.
I wonder if hibernation plays nice with Live CDs. It's a BIOS thing too, so
maybe it could get tricky. Regardless, the need to reboot the system for
updates or 'refreshes' (e.g. memory leaks) is almost non-existent in Linux.
> That was a reason I used to reccommend Mandriva's Globe trotter, to me it
> wasn't the fact that it was portable that mattered, it was more the fact
> that the OS was independent of the machine. It was in no way less capable
> than any other client Linux. It also carried the ability to go back to a
> default if something went wrong with an update or something. Unfortunately
> the last time I looked the Globe Trotter wasn't on Mandriva's list any
> more.
It's a shame. You know, sometimes the best/better solutions do not get the
recognition they deserve. Here we are in a world that speaks about an O/S
that's expensive and filled with "high impact" issues (Microsoft's
description). It also limits the rights of the user while only benefiting
vendors, but let's not go further off topic...
>>> I suppose the problem is still the users. When they ask you to fix their
>>> MS Win machine and you ask 'Do you have the recovery discs', 'No I didn't
>>> get any'. Which means they were asked to make them after install or first
>>> switch on and they isn't a cat in hells chance of recovering the system.
>>> So having them make a boot CD that can be used to recover a broken system
>>> is still asking too much of them.
>>
>>
>> That's where the drivers nightmare kicks in. I don't know if the trolls
>> here are sometimes honest, but my experience suggests that XP /does not/
>> get things working out of the box. Ubuntu Linux was far better in that
>> respect, even old versions of SUSE. Vista is supposed to be worse than XP
>> when it comes to working with your existing hardware/PC, so...
>>
>>
>
> Many a driver is not ready for Vista, on the HP site you get few of what I
> would have said were their main printer models or families that are Vista
> ready. Pick a printer off the top of your head, look for the driver on HP
> and I bet you'll owe me a left sock if you expect to see more than XP and
> Win2000 on that list. (they are gradually catching up, so your sock could
> be safe by now).
Sock -- maybe. What about the socket/s? It was unsurprising to be told that
there are 100-150 million zombie PCs out there. Judging by early assessments
of Vista's security model (bolted on top rather than have the foundation
mended), this isn't going to get any better any time soon. I remember you
saying that the world truly needs a secure Vista. When the hype peeled off
we began to see some experts expose the realities.
> How can this be? I really can't imagine HP wouldn't have stinted in putting
> their teams to work on Vista compatible drivers, it is very much in HP's
> interest to have their printers go off the shelf at the same time as a
> Vista machine does, they have lost out on that now. It can't happen because
> the drivers aren't ready. Well I don't know the answer, I can't point at MS
> and say they held back on giving HP the necessary information, but I can't
> think of another reason why HP would be lax in this.
Especially given their tight relationship with Microsoft, proven through
various recent events, e.g.:
Microsoft dirty tricks, part two (Bob Cringely)
,----[ Quote ]
| "So the outside vendor was Hewlett-Packard, one of Microsoft's
| hardware OEMs, which is to say Microsoft's bitch.
|
| The tape disappearance was blamed on HP, which accepted the blame,
| and the employees directly involved kept expecting there to be
| repurcussions, especially legal ones. They expected to be deposed by
| Burst lawyers. But it never happened.
|
| This was, for Microsoft, a perfect ending. ..."
`----
http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2007/02/microsoft_dirty_tric_4.html
French consumer protectionists are demanding PCs without preinstalled
software
,----[ Quote ]
| The consumer protectionists of the French organization UFC-Que Choisir
| are demanding of the IT group Hewlett-Packard and the vendors Auchan
| and Darty that they offer PCs without preinstalled software.
|
| [...]
|
| UFC-Que Choisir last year also took action against Sony and Apple,
| taking the two companies to court for allegedly putting their
| customers at a disadvantage through proprietary DRM technologies
| and curtailing their choice of devices.
`----
http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/82605/from/rss09
Jury Hears Microsoft Competition Suit
,----[ Quote ]
| A judge on Friday told jurors they must accept as fact that a
| federal court found in 1999 that Microsoft holds a monopoly over
| computer operating systems and that it restricted computer
| manufacturers' ability to use competing systems.
|
| [...]
|
| She said she'll show that the company used its monopoly power
| to exclude competition and control prices and that it conspired with
| other companies to restrain trade, maintaining what she called a
| chokehold on software competitors and computer manufacturers.
|
| "It isn't illegal to be successful," Conlin said in opening
| remarks. "We applaud that. ... But you can't freeze out competitors
| and punish and retaliate against people who cooperate with
| competitors. Microsoft did all that and more."
`----
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061201/microsoft_trial.html?.v=1
Microsoft, HP expand business alliance
,----[ Quote ]
| A new deal announced Wednesday calls for, among other things, more HP
| workers to be trained to sell Microsoft products.
`----
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6143540.html
>>> Why do MS Vendors do that? They have an OS that is designed to seperate
>>> the user from anything techy, i.e. treat the user as a dumb terminal, the
>>> vendors must know as we all do that these people will not make those
>>> recovery CDs. I can understand the vendors wanting the recovery CDs to be
>>> a snapshot of a fully setup system, but they has to be an alternative to
>>> that, a set that is pre-install. Without those CDs the user has nothing
>>> at all he/she can use to recover or reinstall a bad system. Even if they
>>> go out and buy the OS again, there is still the problem of all the
>>> drivers, plus extra code and applications that the PC maker may have
>>> supplied on the orriginal.
>>
>>
>> I still think that companies like Dell ought to include OpenOffice and
>> other third-party software. I know they do some Google software and even
>> install Firefox in the UK, but it's not enough.
>>
>>
>>> You know every time I look in the MS direction now, from clients at work
>>> to relatives and neighbours, all I see is a mess, a system prone to
>>> disaster. Just waiting for that one big bad weekly update or virus that
>>> brings down the entire system over night, then many a MS Win user will be
>>> battering the Internet doors, if they have another machine so they can
>>> get online, of Dell, HP and many others, looking for some way to
>>> reinstall their system. It's like that film, I've forgotten it's name,
>>> where people in a city suddenly realised that the food shops really
>>> weren't going to get anything to fill the shelves anymore, you got the
>>> truely stupid sitting on street corners waiting for food to drop out of
>>> the sky. Then others would raid neighbours houses. Just a few realised
>>> that if they were going to survive they had to get out of the city and
>>> plant some crops and eat rabbits until the bread tree produced fruit,
>>> digging lots of wells trying to find one that produces a nice beer. In
>>> other words, the ignorant suddenly had to learn that bread doesn't grow
>>> on trees and the only beer that comes from a well is Guiness, and there's
>>> only one of those wells.
>>
>>
>> I'm not too sure about the Guiness, but the story you tell here is why I
>> stopped helping people with Windows. If they want to be liberated with
>> GNU/Linux, then here I am. If they have malware issues or Windows won't
>> boot, they'll have to learn a lesson rather than delegate the chore to
>> somebody else. If they get help every time Windows collapses, then they
>> will never reach out for something better, be it a Mac (expensive new
>> machine) or Linux.
>>
>
> Oh yeah, I bet. So if you are round a sister's house and she, knowing you
> were on your way, has just baked a steak and kidney pie but before she asks
> if you want to stay for dinner she says 'My computer wont boot, will you
> look at it', what are you going to say Roy?
Actually, my sister is taking the burden that's my parents' PCs. Let her have
all the 'fun'.
> Steak, only females have that magic touch with steak in pies, melts in your
> mouth tastes like beef is supposed to taste, kidney because she knows I'll
> take your arm off for a bowl of kidneys, wrapped in female pastry.
>
> Female pastry!!! What is that? (I here you ask), Women have a magic touch
> with pastry too, they can make it thick but it doesn't go soggy and sloppy
> under the pie, the crust on top is thick and crispy and buiscuity too, and
> you feel a slight angina attack just looking at it, but well worth a heart
> attack or two.
>
> Then I bet your right sock she has done that rich gravy, might even be Ale
> gravy made with the brother-in-laws Newcastle Brown and he thinks his
> missus is becoming a secret drinker because bottles keep disapearing. Your
> a better man than me if you can refuse to look at her PC and not make it
> take as long as possible to make sure you are still there when she serves
> that pie.
Backups, steaks and pie? How did we get here? How the h**k do I get out of
here?
--
~~ Happy Birthday, George W. (not Bush)
Roy S. Schestowitz | Useful fact: close elevator button = Express Mode
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
roy pts/4 Thu Feb 22 06:47 - 06:49 (00:01)
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
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